Silat Jurus vs Wing Chun Forms

Yo !

I am going through some basic juru training in Silat. As I have some knowledge of Wing Chun forms, (including different lineages versions), I wanted to do a mini-comparison.

From a beginners perspective when you examine Juru 1 and Sil Lum Tao as entry level forms the differences are interesting. Silat has more double hand movements in it. Wing Chun has some double hand movements initially for the generic salutation, then focuses generally on single hand movements.

In Juru 1 there is this underarm slide that looks like the underarm slide in Biu Gee. This is interesting indeed. The application I was shown is very simialr to Wing Chun's. But the gap in being shown these in your Wing Chun 'career' vs the Silat novice is measured in years.

I wonder if the concepts gained in Silat are more mature / faster than those in Wing Chun (as expressed in modern teaching of Wing Chun ?!). Would a Silat player come out with more concepts than a Wing Chun player in a similar timeframe ? 2 hands go into battle early on plus you get footwork and lower level training introduced.

I always thought Silat and Wing Chun look simiar in the hand movements. Hence this comparison. There is no point trying to shoe-horn Wing Chun into the Silat mold and vice versa as they are different mentalities. BUT if you want the same function out of these systems then the comparison is 'fair-use'.

On youtube look about for Silat jurus and forms and contrast this with Wing Chun forms. See a variety of practitioners.

I am begining to think Silat is a more flexible passport into other systems.

Sparring MMA again

I did some MMA type sparring today. Rather I sparred with someone who does MMA skills with takedown vs me.

I can't match this at all and have to aim at getting better than I was before and not flinch and fold etc. when punches rain down on me.

Interesting point was made when it was said trapping does exist in MMA ... on the ground. Its that on the ground - say in mount - the defender can only go in 2 dimensions and so the arms are more predictable to trap.

THAT is interesting. You can pin and hit in a more stable fashion than in stand up when if someone retreats, then your stickyness melts.

Do the Twist !

Twisting in Wing Chun is different from twisting in Silat.

If you watch the 2nd form Chium Kiu on youtube, you will see that they twist the whole body into their pivots.

Silat however, twists the top half of the body. I am learning that that yields more options for legwork. The baset sweep is a good example. You have to keep your base and turret independent to sweep, as the top half creates torque. Maybe I can find some vids to show the distinction.

Divorce !

It's true. Me and Wing Chun (my beautiful springtime) are getting divorced !

It's the upright stance. I believe this is a barrier to learning moves from other disciples. The hook and cross type moves from boxing have the top-half move. The angling-off with the stick again head moves off line. Judo moves have head forward and so does wrestling. (I wrote about chin up below, in another post).

I have invested time in the forms and 'being correct' but the dividends maybe minimal, given that the rewards from other disciplines are being removed. This is a point worth considering if you want to cross-train. Wing Chun could be a barrier to learning mmmmm ..... *if* the upright stance is creeping into your other moves unintentionally.

Actually this isn't a real divorce. it will be a separation of that element. The dummy moves will have to be less upright therefore. The arm shapes can look like other shapes too. The kicks are ok as you still sit down when kicking too, in other applications. That can stay.

Arbitration maybe needed to settle costs and payout for Wing Chun. Or she can pay me. Either way the association cannot continue the way it has been.

Close Range Strikes/Neck Crank/Clinch- Bob Spour SAS Combat

This move is actually a variation of the 1st move of Yip Man's 116 movements on the dummy. The footwork can be seen as a 'box step'. The Peng Nam 116 has that footwork in too.

John Searle on Ludwig Wittgenstein:

This argument here applies to Wing Chun Schools who bicker over 'correct' technique. Different schools have different rules over the same moves meaning and interpretation ...... and use.

first half Slam Set 1

This is someones 1st half of Simonet's Slam set. The angle of the camera is interesting as the near side isn't that blocked. (Better than my filming efforts).

This is good work.

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

This video makes me laugh. It can be applied to anyone / thing in an organisation that proclaims authority over knowledge.

My homework for you - should you watch this - is to think of examples in your learning where you once revered someone / an idea and then had Dorothy's experience.

Leaders of large martial art schools that are very strict on their knowledge could be a target of this ?!

Authors@Google: Josh Waitzkin

This is a good review of themes from Josh's own book that deals with sports psychology, motivation and skill improvement.
This is the 2nd time I have linked to his work / book on this blog. This explanation is more reasoned.
It's a good interview on a good medium.

Key Point Aesthetics vs Practicality

Yesterday had some light sparring activity. During this I had my chin up - what's new. Again I get told to keeping it down. I know this is an issue but like a bad child the habit resurfaces. I try to blame the Wing Chun straightblast and chin up (they keep their chin up becuase the head can be arched back with it out the way).

I am countered with the reply:

"You will get some YMCA practitioner who has spent £2 on his boxing sessions knocking you out. Not even Yip Man would fight like that. Choy Lee Fut would even tuck their chin in.".

This is all right. I know it. But the chin still creeps up. This is what happens when the aesthetic of forms creeps into practice. I must re-invent my forms with chin down. Going right-side forward on the dummy will help here I think as its a realistic stance and the chin has to have something to be tucked into.

Note to self: need to research how other practitioners get their chin down. I recall in a book by Henry Cooper a rolled up newspaper was wedged under the chin to reinforce the lesson.

New Age Symbolism ?!

> The similarities have struck me of these two events. And made a profound impact upon me !

Now look here >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The Master Doing Chium Kiu & 116

Here is Chium Kiu and the 116 being performed by Yip Man, not long before he died of throat cancer. It is worth seeing how Chium Kiu is applied in the 116 movements dummy form.
Bruce Lee went to film Yip Man doing the form but was turned down. Yip Man was not too pleased with Bruce teaching non-Chinese. Ironically, Yip's son went on to teach non-Chinease too. And Wong Jack Man ...

This Is The DVD That Got Me Started

This is the DVD that got me started on the Wing Chun dummy. I have written about it earlier in the blog but here is a DVD clip about it. I like the way Michael Wong is ballistic on the dummy - absolute contrast to many other practitioners of the 116 movements. Note: it's a contrast, not the alternative.

The form is Pen Nam's form it has eagle claw moves in it, too, plus a re-juggling of many of moves that Yip Man's system has. If you know this form then you can add in Yip Man moves to spice it up. Yip Man's moves has more diverse kicks, (but not as diverse as Randy Williams / Austin Fong's system). There is some straight blasting in this form but not in Yip Man's form.

Robot on Dummy

This is one dummy display that IS hard to match ! Maybe it's getting at the idea of simulation and 'aliveness' that Mat Thornton criticizes traditional training for, (no footwork). Ok - no it ISN'T, but ...good work here. I got this off youtube and its by Andy McGrath a 3D animator interested in Wing Chun. Good skills. www.anthonymcgrath.co.uk

Extreme Slam Set Segment

I bought this double-VHS set when I got my dummy in 2003/4. What I liked about this set was the insights and uses of the dummy. It went beyond what the classical instructional tapes had and was better than the JKD dummy tapes I had. JKD dummy use is very fast and hard to see what the practitioner is doing, (ok that's not totally true). Here Simonet had some integrated moves from other arts and does show multiple applications for the same tool. That is worthy.
Here I liked the straight blast that ends in the eye jab / fuk sau shape.

Sticks On The Dummy

Here is Addy Hernandez - Joseph Simonet's co-worker using the dummy, [minus its leg] for stick work. Fair use of the dummy. Lucay Lucay does something similar. If you are worried about splinters, then use rolled up magazine, or just put a tree branch in where the arm was.

Jeet Kune Do TRAPPING 1 Also Applied To Dummy

This is some good teaching and application video from Youtube. It's about the controversial skill of trapping:

Some people debate the value of this skill. Some say its H-a-R-d to implement. Some say it is hard - but you need to practice it - therefore.

I only know about 2 or 3 traps properly. You either excel at this or don't bother, I sometimes think. Complex or compound traps just arn't going to happen in an assault, they are best seen as using energy in different ways.
Interestingly Geoff Thompson said trapping is useful - it's how its applied. A basic pak sau and punch is well worth knowing, I believe as it could be seen in practical situatuations - e.g. finger pointing aggression; grab attempt. Remember you can re-feed your punch - dont bother swimming for another solution. OR just change your angles for a new line of attack.

Some JKD schools like Ted Wong's don't do trapping I understand. Maybe trapping will be reclassified to fit into wrestling and stand-up grappling. I can see chi sau going this way - see Alan Orr's www for ideas there.

Anyway what I liked here was the use of the dummy / other person. This is a clear video. Credit to the teachers.

Useful Quote From Josh Waitskin

Here is a good quote from Josh Waitzkin author of the book The Art of Learning.

From: http://onthemat.com/articles/Josh_Waitzkin_Interview_01_25_2008.html

"But to answer your question—honestly, a very large percentage of Tai Chi practitioners have their heads in the clouds…and they are the ones who make the most noise, stage the silly fake demonstrations, and create a cultish mindset that a practical fighter can just walk right through. I’d write them off too. Plus the system has little groundwork and most teachers are still closed minded about that element of the martial arts. Frankly, I think this problem is rampant in many traditional martial arts—teachers are terrified of looking bad and losing students so they create a world that denies what they don’t know."

What is interesting here is Josh is an uber MMA. He cross-trained Tai Chi, Brazillian JJ and chess !

He has ideas of how they are linked. What I liked in this quote is how he shows learning can take place in a bubble. If you stay in one place you miss out external voices that may want to test and question your premises. I can identify learning in martial arts when people refer to the techniques validity, via a master, in the system.

What has this got to do with the Wing Chun Dummy. Well it can be applied as a reminder to the learning of the form in its own right - rather than applications. You may get a shock if you arn't thinking about applications. Also you look on youtube and the comments people make about diversity of use of the dummy. It shows how people think there is one right way. That is the 'closed' mind set mentioned here in the quote.

It could be BJJ and Vale Tudo develop a closed mindset too if they end up thinking, due to their corrections and criticisms, they have arrived at THE method and stop pressure testing it and examining even old ideas again.

Triangular Footwork

This footwork #is# in the 116 movements if you choose to see it. The leg is in the dummy to make you vector on the 'V' shape. (I had drawn some pictures earlier on in the blog - see archives for these ideas, but now I know how to link to youtube its a good idea to revise this).

Doesn't matter if the 116 movements has the 'exact' footwork, as your drills can just absorb differences).

Psychology-Richard Grannon- Learn To Deal With Verbal Threat

Look at this. Self-defense orientated video. Here the instructor offers models of what pre-fight rituals look like. This is aggressive behavior that men get into before a conflict. This is worth knowing about. (Geoff Thompson started making people aware of this in the mid 90s).

The hands up can be used when on the dummy - pretend you're fencing off people in each of the forms sections maybe, or in your drills ? Hands up at all times above the dummy arms. Maybe the dummy arms touch you ? - then its elbow range.

Here the video uses talk to diffuse the situation and be vigilant, too, for aggression.

Parts of this video offer very new approaches to 'the fence' - @ 6 mins in he looks at type of talk stance. This is even sideways on like a therapist ! This is interesting - (maybe if you are trying to win the person over to be your friend / be friendly. Get this wrong and your dead).

Words of Wisdom PT 1

Here listen to the 'new paradigm' for learning and training MA by Matt Thornton. See his chess analogy too @ 6.30 onwards. Very apt.

Silat Meets Wing Chun

Here we have Wing Chun mixed with Silat. This could be trained on the dummy - those chopping straight blasts. It wouldn't need padding either, as the blade of the hand can chop hard on the dummy.

The way they talk about Silat's evolution, it is feasible Southern stylists came from China with Wing Chun ideas and they were adapted. Plus the weapons of Kali ....

Wing Chun - Dummy form explained

Here the teacher shows dummy applications from the form. Good stuff. Worth watching all the way through.

Opening Credits -- The Taking of Pelham 123

This can be the tune for the dummy. This is Shire's peice that repretsents the hussle and bussle of diverity in New York.
Well the dummy can represent that in its moves - or the moves you apply to it. Joseph Simonet's work on the Slam Set is very diverse. I dedicated this to him !

CCK TCPM Wooden Dummy Form

Here is another Kung Fu use of the dummy (non-Wing Chun. I can see some similarities in how Randy Williams uses his dummy form and this. Eg. use of elbows and knees in the form here. Leg sweeps too. Some differences - a 360 tiger tail spin in this. High protecting arm in this form too.
If its possible the best camara angle for dummy forms is 3/4 down view. Its hard to see the near side when the practitioner is camera side.

Master Donald Mak demo in Hong Kong

Look this is an 'air dummy' - someone doing the form like an Air Guitar ! There is a Nike advert out there with a woman doing the same thing.
This practitioner has nice crisp movement.

Human Weapon Kung Fu - Chain Punching

Glad to see this topic being addressed. Wish I saw all of this program.